About time I did a real college post, right? You can expect a lot of them in the next few months. Rest assured.
From the beginning of my college search, I had (perhaps mistakenly) written off SUNY (State University of New York) schools as something I wouldn’t want to look into. A few people had told me that they’re ‘beneath me’. To stir things up, the other day a friend of mine posed the questions, “What SUNY’s are you looking at?” I told her none, and she said I should find one as backup.
I’m still working with only three schools right now, Lafayette, RPI, and UCONN. As I begin the application process, I’m desperately trying to find more. I believe I’ll have luck shortly, and I’ll be posting my research progress this weekend.
Today’s question: Should I be looking at SUNY’s, in your opinion? If so, which is the gem of the system? I have my own gut feeling on this issue, but I enjoy feedback.
I don’t know which are the best. Actually, I haven’t the slightest clue, so we’re both on the same boat.
Ricky, don’t concern yourself much with the SUNY system. They’re main appeal is the awesome price ($4,350/year), but generally speaking the education really isn’t as good.
SUNY schools were originally an integral part of my college search, as I found them to be exactly parallel to private colleges in terms of academic rigor, but they’re simply not.
There is actually a ranking system of SUNY colleges. I believe the best are Buffalo, Binghampton, Stony Brook, and Albany. Geneseo is really good as well, Mr. Koz went there.
Anyhow, they’re not a ‘bad’ system, espeically for state schools, and I think you’d be guaranteed a free ride for the most part if you applied to any of them, but I wouldn’t recommend it. I’m not advising out of a conceited attitude, mind you, I just think something else would be more appropriate.
Holy cow I just made a ‘there’ error, I need to be fined or something. ‘Their,’ not ‘they’re’ wow…
Binghamton is usually regarded the best university, Albany is supposed to be good too, and Geneseo is a good liberal arts college. It’s not a bad idea to have one as a backup (more for financial aid reasons than admissions, honestly). I agree with Christine, essentially: they’re good for state schools, but they’re just not the same as a private school.
Not to be a douchebag or anything, but how do you judge a college’s academic rigor if you’ve never gone there? I’ve applied to four SUNY Colleges so far(Bing, New Paltz, Stony Brook, and Albany) and I’m now looking at some private colleges to round my search. I’m looking into biochemistry, something it would be better to have a master’s degree in. I really don’t feel like racking up hundreds of thousands in debt in an undergrad program. What, exactly, is wrong with SUNYs?
Basically, state school equals less money/endowment equals: larger class sizes, less personal attention, higher likelihood of not getting into classes you need and therefore not graduating in four years, less opportunities for internships (my private school funds internships for non profits and stuff), generally the alumni network isn’t as strong. And in all honesty, even in the good SUNYs, the students aren’t as focused as you’re going to find in a private school.
Now, that being said, your reasoning re: Master’s is sound. It varies between fields how important your undergrad is. And it’s not impossible to get a great education at a SUNY–just harder.
From what I just read, to you, state school = bigger? I’m not quite sure that’s accurate.
Smaller class sizes? Vassar, which is a private, reputable institute, has a student to faculty ratio of nine to one.(http://admissions.vassar.edu/about.html) The student to faculty ratio at SUNY Binghamton is a superior 6:1(http://www.princetonreview.com/mba/research/profiles/generalinfo.asp?listing=1010971<ID=2)
State Schools != Bigger classes.
Class availablity? Not graduating? Alumni network? Student focus? Non-sequiter? How do you know all this? And how does a larger enrollment poll make for a weaker alumni network?
Kim nailed it. It’s not pleasant paying back loans, but it’s certainly worth it.
I’ve had a rebuttal awaiting moderation for about twelve hours now. =P
Hey, if SUNYs work for you, by all means go for them. Everybody is different, and yes, you’ve certainly got a point about the difference in cost. Besides, the SUNYs you’re applying to are the best. You can’t get much better than Binghampton and Stony Brook, and the others are great too. Just make sure that you have some variety in case you change your mind at some point farther down in the line.
I appreciate the advice, christine. Thanks alot.
What I’m trying to figure out is, are all the stigmas of the SUNY System true? They are public colleges, but with private college’s prices sky rocketing, the SUNY’s have become more competitive.
Well, as a senior last year, I was really big on SUNYs. In fact, I was all set to go to Plattsburgh for months because they gave me an awesome scholarship. BUT, I didn’t really look at SUNY Plattsburgh’s academic standards. That’s the key, in your college search, Chris, look at how hard it is to get into your schools. I know applying is such a pain with SAT scores, transcripts, and all that other stuff but seriously it’ll pay off. The harder it is to get in, the less likely students who don’t care will make up the student body. Now that doesn’t mean you’ve got to go crazy, but if you see that all you need is like a low B or something to get in you might want to consider something else. Check out the U.S. News and World Report, they give a ranking on every college in the country, and are really very helpful. But again, stick with your SUNY pursuit if that works for you, they should be good, just go for the right ones!
I really don’t care about the other students. If they don’t care, that’s their choice. What a care about is qualified staff. As long as I’m learning what I want to know, I’m happy.
I’m not sure how valid the US News report is. I mean, if you’ve ever read the US News, you’d know it’s not exactly scholarly.
Thanks again
.
Just check it out and see what you think. College is about individualism, do what works for you (not me or anyone else!)
But are you going to get qualified, dedicated staff in a school known for its lax student body?
If you were an excellent professor and scholar, why wouldn’t you go somewhere where you knew you’d have motivated, talented students?
Because I get paid more? Because I don’t have to work as hard? I really can’t accurately answer that question, I am neither a professor nor am I considering what college to teach at.
Don’t professors teach in order to research, anyway? Albany has some ridiculously sophisticated research equipment.
They get paid more and they get students who actually pay attention and appreciate their education. And you don’t want a professor whose primary concern is their research. You want them to want to teach.
Yeah, there’s A LOT of discussion in college, and when students aren’t paying attention, the whole class goes down the drain pretty quickly. You’re going to need both a qualified staff and focused students. If they don’t care, class will normally consist of unproductive awkward silence. Whether or not you’re paying a lot or a little to go to school, you won’t want that.
And yes, for some reason playing the devil’s advocate is fun so I’m discussing both sides of the issue here!
Have an open mind: look at SUNYs, but please give other schools a chance. They have a lot going for them too.
Also, there are definitely expensive private schools that are equal or lesser than SUNYs.
Such as?
Oh yeah, there are lots. Of course if you’re planning on investing in a private college, be sure to go with a GOOD one. Otherwise you’d just be wasting your money, which for obvious reasons is unfortunate.
@ Chris’s Oct 3rd: Professors don’t teach. They profess. Especially in math and science, which is Rick’s specialty. Therefore, a professor will always go for the highest paying school with the greatest research capabilities. Therefore, SUNYs won’t have the most experienced and qualified staff. HOWEVER, you may be a completely independent learner at a more prestigious college (at least as an undergrad).
Non-sequiter. What makes SUNY’s pay less and have less of a research capability? Funding? Whatever they lose in not charging absurd tuition is made up for by state funding.
Professor’s do profess, but saying “Dont professors profess to..” is awkward.
They don’t make that much of the difference up, though. There’s so many SUNY’s it’s split so many ways. And you REALLY want focused students if you’re a science/math/engineering major. You WILL need help. You can learn more from studying with somebody for a few hours than a week of lecture. Not that lecture’s not inmportant, but talking it out is the difference between sort of getting it and completely getting it. And it’s a lot easier to study when you have other people around you studying. And everything I saw when I went to a SUNY school was a “YEAH COLLEGE LET’S GET BLASTED” atmosphere. Albany is a party school, Stony Brook is a commuter school (good luck finding people to help you out there…) and I don’t know anything about Binghamton, but I will say Albany takes 5 years minimum for some of the engineering degrees because you have to transfer. There is no other option, they simply don’t have the dedicated staff. And the research opportunities are minimal to nonexistant, which you’ll find, if you’re science or engineering, is unspeakably terrible. Not to mention Albany gave me all of a 150 dollar a year scholarship. Out of state schools were cheaper.
Oh that’s another thing: parties. College can be one big world of distraction. People pull at you from every which direction wanting to do things other than study, believe me. I go to Messiah College, which is a Christian school and a dry campus, and I can still find plenty of ways to socialize procrastinating my work if I want to. And most students here are pretty dedicated.
If you go to a school without a focused student body, it will be harder to concentrate on your work. Not many will want to study with you, which is essential as college is mostly independent learning. Throw alcohol to excess into the picture and now we’re really in trouble. Think about all of these factors when looking into a college — whether or not you go for a SUNY, try to choose a college that’s a bit of a pain to get into. The ones with tough admissions standards are the colleges that will have the best to offer in terms of students, faculty, everything.
The presence of parties isn’t a bad ting, though. The problem is having to live in one, which is what I hear from most SUNY schools. Also, none of them have any real honors programs (albany has the “presidential scholars, which has no support, special classes, or living spaces. It’s just a worthless designator). Honors programs can make what you get out of school consderably better. Some schools don’t have them because they don’t need them (RPI, for instance), but they’re always really good. Living in honors housing my freshman year was probably the best thing I could have done. Everyone still relaxed, and there was definitely an active social life, but when it was time to work, you could always find somewhere to do it or someone o work with.
“Not many will want to study with you, which is essential as college is mostly independent learning.”
ah…Independent learning that needs other people? I’m not really sure. I find that other people slow me down, from what I know during lab groups and such. Is college totally different?
Doesn’t albany have an honors college? I’m looking at this brochure, and its talking about an honors college.
Alcohol won’t be a problem for me, I’m sobrietous.
Stony Brook has it’s commuter issues. People who go there tell me most of the student body heads home for the weekend, as they’re all with their high school buds.
150 dollars/year scholarship? What is that, like, half a textbook?
How accurate are our guesses at the funding? How much state funding does the SUNY system get?(Note, “not much” is not an accurate answer, it’s a guess.)
Anybody know anything about Buffalo?
Independent as in it’s on you to learn it. Lecture gives you a foundation, but the rest is up to you, and there’s no way you’ll get it on your own. You need to learn two things to succeed in college: How to study, and how to learn from your peers. They aren’t all schumky like they are in high school.
And like I said, Albany’s honors college doesn’t really exist too much. No special classes (unless they added them since february ’06), no specific dorm, and no real oppurtunities. And yeah, 150 is about half a textbook. Less, if you’re an engineer.
SUNY schools aren’t bad schools, it’s just there are much better alternatives. Most people use them as safeties in case they don’t get in/can’t afford anywhere better.
I just returned from a weekend visiting friends at Albany.
I have a friend in the Albany honors program, and basically all it means is she’s taking an English class with 30 people instead of like 100. The rest of her classes are regular classes.
Said friend is also a non-drinker, and that’s why she hates Albany–it’s so pervasive. Professors don’t take class seriously because the students don’t. Drunk people yell out on the quad every night, all night. And there’s not much to do if you don’t party.
And side note, yes, studying with others is different in college because you meet other people on your intellectual level who aren’t deadweight in group situations. (I did a lot of high school science labs by myself, I know how it is.)
Unlike high school, professors will give you a snaphot of the information that your course is covering, but not often anymore than that. You’ll need other students to go over the information with. So you see, the learning is independent in that a teacher won’t be there for you all of the time. Professors are willing to help if you have any questions and such, but it’s just not the same.
Ever hear the expression “you get what you pay for?” That’s completely applicable to college.
Alright, alright, maybe I was nitpicking about the independent thing
Is “you get what you pay for” really applicable to college? If I only spend 11g/year on my education, am I only getting that much? Is my education how much money I spend?
To be honest, I think of myself as intelligent, but my grades aren’t great. I have four AP courses, a weighted average of 86(:O)and an ACT score of 32. I dont know where I fit, all the colleges seem to have proportional GPA/Standardized test ranges. My GPA is kinda low, my ACT’s are 99.9 percentile. These college reps(even the ones from Albany, a college you guys have righteously bashed)pump up the appearance of their college in order to intimidate the people they’re presenting to. A waste of time in my opinion.
What I want is an empirical comparison of the colleges I want to go to. I dont want a US News Rank, I dont want some kickback funded list of bullshit. I want the truth.(Which you guys are helping to provide, thanks!)
There’s plenty of information out there, but what significance does it have? I can see the average high school GPA of incoming freshman, their average SAT range, ACT range, honors/AP courses, and to me it all means nothing.
I dont know what to think, really. I’ve asked two people I feel are credible on the topic, my Biology/Chemistry teacher, Richard Birchman, and my 7th or 8th grade science teacher, whose name I can’t recall. I was told by these two men not to “ulcerate” over my undergrad, and just to do well and learn and get my masters at a good school.
This whole money thing throws me off a little. The two aphorisms I hear tossed around are “You get what you pay for” and “You get out what you put in”. They seem kinda opposite, no?
Thanks
If you don’t mind, please consider using less foul language. A good debate isn’t one that is run through the mud, which is exactly what that sort of vernacular does.
Everything depends on who you’re speaking to: in my opinion, college is NOT what you make of it, which I know is contrary to the popular stance on college life. You get out of college what you put into it ONLY if you’re at an institution that is quality and will thus help you grow.
Plain and simply stated, good grades really help in the admissions process. But a B isn’t bad, and you’re in AP, a saving grace for sure. So you shouldn’t hesitate to apply to decent schools.
You also simply cannot discount statistics and other professional reviews. I don’t know you personally, but if you knew me at all as a high school senior I can assure that I was once quite an apologist for the SUNY system. It wasn’t until April that I conceded to the truth of the matter: you’ve got to watch those SUNYs, they’re just not as good as other schools in most circumstances. If you’re not looking at Buffalo, Binghampton, Stony Brook, or Geneseo, maybe Albany, I don’t know if the education will be if you want it to be. I doubt it.
You’re dealing with too many students, too little funding, too laxed admissions standards — you know professsional college rankings have to come from somewhere, and most of the time they’re dead on. The only problems I’ve ever seen are a tendency to favor the Ivy League a little too much, which does not apply to our cause here.
If you like SUNYs go for them, be happy, and prosper. Rejoice and be glad in your lack of loans. But don’t be mean to people who are trying to help you.
“If you don’t mind, please consider using less foul language.” Can’t be done, sorry. My abrasive diction wasn’t directed at you, I thought I made that clear with my parenthetical aside.
“you know professsional college rankings have to come from somewhere”
Everything comes from somewhere, that means nothing. I mean, maybe you’re getting at the fact that they’re well established, but I’m not really sure I trust something just because it has a well developed infrastructure.
“and most of the time they’re dead on”
On what is that statement based?
It’s based on my own personal experience as well as what I’ve heard from the personal experience of others. People who go to schools that U.S. News and other professional college analysts have said are good, do, in fact, go to good schools.
Not everything’s a conspiracy, those things exist to help prospective students along in their search for quality institutions.
Don’t listen to them if you don’t want to, but then go ahead and figure out another way to find out, as an outsider, as to what your life will be like at a college you’ve never attended (besides exacerbating exposay readers). What are the standards?? What is the intellectual atmosphere like? Is there an intellectual atmosphere? How good are the professors? Are they available? Are class sizes small? Is getting plastered the reason why students want to go to college here, or are they maybe looking for something more?
These things have got to be considered no matter what school you’re looking into. That’s sort of the idea behind doing a college search before you jump into something. Experts know things. People follow their advice. People are happy. And all is well.
Sorry to have angered you =P The only reason I’m so skeptical is because college is kind of a big deal.
And I’ll do my best to get an image of what college life is like without going there. That’s what I’m doing.
Not angered, just debating, you know there’s a difference.
Of course college is a big deal. That’s why you’ve got to look at all of your options. If you do that, I’ll be happy.
I love you guys.
I love you too. Thanks alot, Christine!
Aw, I love you guys too (yes, I had to add the ‘aw’ because it wouldn’t have been girly enough otherwise).
Hey, no problem, Chris. Great debate! Good luck & God bless with your college search, and I hope you find a great match in whatever you decide.
Well, I think I may be joining in on this rant/debate a little late.
I’m new to this blog and may perhaps hold a different opinion; although, it appears it may of ended.
I am attending a SUNY school, one perhaps that is looked down upon in the eyes of some people, none specific. Maybe I’m just brain-dead, but the courses here seem rigorous and to a certain degree challenging. The classes are larger than what I anticipated, and although I disagree that class participation should not be included in the average, it gives you more incentive to speak up and become more noticed than the guy who decided it was a good idea to party on a Wednesday. If you want to stand out in college you’re going to stand out. If you want to blend in to the background of it all then you will naturally do so.
As for the professors, mine have made all the effort along with me to make time to clear up and discrepancies while in class or in the readings. My friends professors have also done the same, and being a freshman many opportunities for help and tutoring are available. This doesn’t seem to me, that my professors are less dedicated than my friends who are attending private schools.
To touch on the stigma of the SUNY school. My friend Luke and I agree that when we told teachers and people within our schools that we were attending SUNY Plattsburgh, they were disappointed in us. We both applied to larger private schools and got into those larger private schools, but chose the small SUNY school.
As for parties, I know most colleges, that are not dry campuses offer
substances free housing. A group of students who prefer to hit the books on weekends instead of hitting the pavement after a couple keg stands. Your dorm isn’t the only place to study, you can escape the “need” to party, but going to a study lounge or even the…library.
In the end, to kind of touch on what everyone said. Going to a SUNY school or a private school is your choice. Whether a SUNY school is your top pick or the only choice you have make the best of it. If you really can’t afford a private school, test out the SUNY system. You could pick a SUNY school hoping for the best and find shit there. There’s a thing called transferring.
YOU make your education worthwhile not the price tag.
Is that really true, though? Can you get a kickass education minus debt?
Emily just made some fantastic points. Awesome, this is such a good debate!
But wait… is Chris refuting a SUNY advocate??
I maintain that you should apply to a variety of schools, and really dig as deep as you can as to what your experience will be like at any of your prospective institutions.
Also, NEVER EVER EVER feel that people will be ‘disappointed’ in you for attending a SUNY. That is such stupidity I don’t even know where to emphasize this next. I remember my SUNY situation with everyone and their nonsensical, conceited opinions. I’ve been on the other side of this issue for any reason EXCEPT that one. SUNY students have got everything going for them intellectually as other students, no question about that.
No one will ever be ‘disappointed,’ and if they are, I hope that someday they will simply learn to stop being so vain.
Refuting a SUNY advocate? I’d hardly call a question a refutation. And why should it matter what stance she has? I’m only looking for the answers.
Whoa, whoa, okay! I didn’t mean to step on anybody’s toes there!
I think you can get an equivalent education, but it may be harder for you to do so. It depends on the kind of person you are and what you’re looking for in a college.
What are you looking for in a college, anyway? What are the most important aspects of college life that you have in mind?